Exhibition Catalogue

Please Scream Inside Your Heart

Exhibition Catalogue

Uncensored

Violence, aggressive language, hate groups and women’s nipples. These things violate community standards of international social media platforms. As a woman, I find it bizarre that parts of my body can fall under the same category as hate speech. 

The censorship guidelines specific to women’s bodies seem to imply that nipples on a woman exist for the sexual arousal of the gazer. And are therefore inappropriate for the public domain. Anyone engaged in online communities knows that some exceptions are made; for brands, celebrities, those who can bring in a profit. 

When the commodification of women’s bodies is favoured over individual agency we are left with the erasure of women-led stories. When our authorship is silenced we are reduced to an archetype. In The Allegory of the Cave, by Plato people experience the world only via shadows of objects cast on the wall. They are limited to seeing false images of reality.

Online censorship clarifies the societal confusion between empowerment and objectification of women and our bodies. Even in this new form of media, inconsistent censorship creates false realities where women’s relevance exists only in relation to the patriarchal Male Gaze.

Sadness Is Sexy

Recently I wrote an essay to accompany Jessica Schwientek’s series Sadness is Sexy.

Sadness is Sexy is currently showing at NOIR Darkroom, Coburg, Victoria until July 28th.

Jessica Schwientek’s series Sadness is Sexy evokes the ache of loneliness, and the ache that comes from loving. Caring fucking hurts. Being sad fucking hurts. This genre of photography is about documenting the here and now. In the introduction to her seminal series The Ballad of Sexual Dependency Nan Goldin writes “It’s a common opinion that the photographer is a voyeur. I’m not crashing, this is my party.” As time passes the value of Goldin’s series sharpens. Her position of both author and subject allowed her to create an intimate time capsule of New York on the cusp of the AIDS crisis. Due to their vernacular aesthetic and connection with their subjects it feels natural to compare Schwientek to Goldin.

Like Sadness is Sexy, Ballad centres on self-portraits. Both photographers approach themselves with a sense of curiosity. Looking to the camera to provide insight to their poignancy. Famously Goldin’s self-portraits include several with her then lover who seriously assaulted her. With unflinching honesty she documented her bruised face and bloodshot eyes. In the documentary I’ll Be Your Mirror Goldin explains that she took those photos, “to remind herself never to go back to him.” Goldin documented her physical recovery, however her emotional trauma took much longer to heal. She eventually spiralled into drug addiction. Years later, after leaving a treatment centre Goldin documented herself again, “first to relearn my face, then the outside world.”

As life twists and contorts, expands and ages us before our eyes, some artists have found it instinctual to document periods of transition. Melbourne photographer Carol Jerrems died at the age of 30 in 1980 due to complications resulting from polycythemia. She documented her changing body, often standing in front of mirrors, her camera visible; drawing attention to her being the architect of the image. She photographed herself and her surroundings in hospital until she was too weak to continue. Perhaps photographing the end of her life was Jerrems way of confronting immortality.

Schwientek’s work isn’t necessarily feminist, however being a woman politicises the work due to the hetero-patriarchal gaze in which we (society) view women through. To be a woman authoring her own self-image is still a radical act of resistance. Traditionally women have had our complexity stripped away, becoming objects adjacent to history. I’d like to quote Hannah Gadsby at this point “fellas, you do not have a monopoly on the human condition.”

In 2016 Filmmaker Jill Soloway defined The Female Gaze in three parts; Part One: Reclaiming the body & using it with intention to communicate feeling. Part Two: Using the camera to show the feeling of being seen. Part Three: A reversal of the roles of object and subject. As Soloway explains, “It’s not the gazed gaze. It’s the gaze on the gazers. It’s about how it feels to stand here in the world having been seen our entire lives.” Schwientek has claimed her subjectivity and your gaze in the act of creating self-portraits. 

When photographers such as Goldin, Jerrems and Schwientek turn the camera on themselves they create affirmations of their existence. They seek to take control of their own narrative, as individuals and women; while contemplating the impact of their external surroundings. Life is fleeting, and so much of it doesn’t make sense. No wonder the ‘selfie’ is a cultural phenomenon; photographs are immortal. The aim of a self-portrait is to at once assert ourselves into the ephemeral and transcend it.

Some Words Put Together in a Melancholy, But Beautiful Kinda Way

Some Words Put Together in a Melancholy, But Beautiful Kinda Way explores the theme of depression through a multifaceted lens. Steering away from the homogenous or stereotyped depictions we often see in the media and art. The idea of the struggling, depressed artist has been romanticized. Think of van Gogh, Munch or Plath.

This show encourages the viewer to think differently, and untangle the mythology of mental illness. I wanted to showcase art that didn’t just represent depression but explored the catharsis that creativity plays in coping or living with a mental illness.

Each subjective experience is reflected in the difference of the works. Artists were not selected by medium, but for the use of their process. As a result the exhibition shows the varied ways in which depression manifests and how each individual expresses their experience of depression through their practice.

By displaying honest and unselfconscious representations on the theme of depression, Some Words Put Together in a Melancholy, But Beautiful Kinda Way aims to combat the stigma and oversimplified image of mental illness.

As the curator, my personal experience of depression was an integral part of the ideas and theories underpinning the show. When I try to articulate my depression and anxiety I describe it as paralysing; I feel stuck in my body, I don't feel connected to myself, people or a sense of place. Through my photography practice I confront these emotions, which I have often found difficult, and at times impossible to work through. The cathartic process that creating art has on my depression, is subconsciously shown through my work. Photography allows me to feel present in the moment, and connects me to myself when I’m feeling a sense of disassociation.

This exhibition is an extension of my cathartic process. Rather than introspection, Some Words Put Together in a Melancholy, But Beautiful Kinda Way reflects a community of people and experiences.

...and she always knows her place, Interview Series

…and she always knows her place is a project promoting female and female identifying driven narratives, exploring what it is to be a woman in contemporary life.

I interviewed Melbourne fashion designer and stylist Grace Butterworth last year. I think Grace would describe herself as an introvert, as do I. I identified with her story about trying to find value in yourself, using fashion as an armour and taking up some mother fucking space.

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A: What kind of things are important to you in your live right now?

G: Well, I don't know. I think just sort of working out what I should be doing is a big thing. because I’m kinda unemployed mainly at the moment. Just sort of working on my own little projects and doing the styling stuff. I was in London for a year, and came back like a year ago and I feel like I've been not sure what to do with a fashion degree here.

A: Is there way more opportunity in London?

G: There is, but then there isn’t. Like, they take full advantage of interns over there. It’s cut throat. London is a great place, like there’s so much to do, there are so many opportunities as well but everyone is a work-a-holic over there. Like six days a week everyone is working all the time. I was really lucky, because I won this award that sent me over there with my grad collection. They found me an internship and then paid me a wage for the internship. Otherwise I could never afford to do it, because it you have to intern for a long time at the company and maybe you’ll get a job? But I wouldn't know how to go straight there and get a job. 

A: It’s tough. I lived there myself for a couple of year. I loved living there, but, I’m actually glad my time was limited because I don't think I could sustain a life there. I mean it’s hard enough here in a creative industry… I think career is a big thing for me at the moment too. Like, how do you make this happen?

G: Yeah exactly. God yeah, there’s so many interns in the place that I worked at that had been there for two years and were not going to get a job out of it. Like, we weren't even allowed to use the kettle to make tea and stuff. All through London winter, no microwave for food.

A: What? That’s brutal.

G: They had like ten interns at some point, and they’re like, ‘it’s too hectic if you all use the kettle.’ I didn't see it at the time, because I was so determined to do a really good job, but it’s like, ‘you guys are fucked!’ They get us to walk everywhere, carrying I don't know how many kilo’s worth of gowns. They wouldn't folk out for Uber’s or taxi’s. So you’d have to walk places or take public transport. I’d be on the Tube at peak hour, with like ￡10,000, like hugely expensive gowns, carrying them to a stylist or something in the city, on the fucking Tube. And told not to drop or to damage it, not bend it at all, you have to keep it in pristine condition. Like, what the fuck guys?!

A: Yeah, you’d think they’d fork out a couple of pounds for a cab. For me, I thought that stemmed back to the class system in England, and once you notice it, it’s really prominent.

G: I never really thought of it that way. But I think that maybe it is like a prevailing notion there. It’s like us and them. Yeah, it was really separative like that.

A: I'm interested in how women view there place in society, and if they still feel pressure to conform to gender roles and expectations. Is that something you think about at all?

G: Yeah, I struggle hugely with speaking up, or being a leader or having ideas heard, and I fall into a role as well, and I don't like that. Like, my girlfriend she is the manager of this other woman that she’s working with, but she didn't realise that she was her manager. My girlfriend kept going like ‘I don't know what I’m doing? I'm trying to like manager her, and tell her the different things to do but she’s not treating me as her manager.’ She didn't realise at all. She thought that they were equal ranking. But my girlfriend was actually meant to give her direction. But she didn’t realise the set up, so that was really awkward. People just assumed that she wouldn't be the manager. Even other women. 

A: Yeah. That’s so interesting. I think because of the way that we’ve been brought up to think about ourselves, I guess it’s prejudice. You don't mean to be that way. It’s just your reality is women don't fall into this role or this category. Anyway I’m just blabbering now a bit. 

G: No, I agree. The guys I work with have all been really great, but… it’s more something that I need to work on myself. Just feeling sort of like there’s always a little bit of tension. 

A: How do you mean?

G: Just like, oh dudes acting a little bit flirty. Which can be uncomfortable, because I’m obviously gay. I work that into conversations sometimes. 

A: I’ll just casually drop this…

G: Casually, ‘hey…like soz.’ (lol). Oh yeah, like this producer, the last show we did we went out for drinks afterwards. Then at the end of the night, I kissed him goodbye on the cheek, and then he tried to kiss me on the cheek but turned his head and kissed me on the lips at the last second. Like, this is a guy I’d been working with for two days. I’m pretty sure he did it on purpose. I know that could be a mistake. I think because he pulled me in for a second, and then turned his head at the last second. Stuff like this that makes you feel, ugh, like we can’t just be friends. Like, I want to be friends with these people, and I want more men in my life who are great, inspiring, everything. But then this stuff happens, and you just feel like (sigh) exhausted. At times it’s like ‘Who is the one I can trust?’

A: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

G: I think it’s why I prefer working with women sometimes. I want to get over it. That’s another thing I wanna try fight through. I have a goal to work on with myself, to have clear boundaries and be more comfortable around men.

A: I wonder if it’s also…. well older men can come across a bit disrespectful of younger women in the workplace. I just don’t even really want to deal with that.

G: Yeah, exactly. It can be a bit of a boys club too, at times.

A: Even in fashion?

G: Yeah. Definitely. Photo shoots a lot. Fashion not so much. The guys I’ve met on the fashion side have been really lovely. But I think sometimes a lot of male designers get, and I don’t know maybe it’s not completely right? But sometimes they get heard a little bit more, they’re more respected. It’s just like a feeling that male designers are appreciated more. In a way, for doing something that’s usually a woman’s… you know it comes back to women’s art is craft, quilting and tapestry and stuff is a craft. But when a guy does it, it can be Art!

A: Yes. suddenly he’s taken this old medium and changed it in a new way!

G: Yeah, wow! How inspiring.‘Taking a craft and making it Art!’ It’s like, ‘it has always been Art.’

A: Well anything that’s traditionally a woman’s job in the home, like cooking, fashion; sewing, art, craft, all those things in the professional realm are male dominated. 

G: Yeah! It’s like what the fuck?! Like, so many famous chefs are male. That’s great and everything but you know it’s not an equal representation. I’m sure there are many female amazing chefs out there. I think it’s such an ingrained thing. It can be frustrating.

A: It just feels like so… all really nuanced. It is part of our societal norm, you don't even know how you’re supposed to tackle it in a way. 

G: Yeah, it’s huge. 

A: Do you feel valued as a woman in society?

G: Hmm it’s tricky. I don't really feel like I'm doing much of value in society I guess in general, because I’m mostly unemployed and just kicking around. I don't know, I think possibility? It’s like I constantly need my friends to tell me if I’m good at something or I am capable of something. I feel totally incapable some of the time. Even though I can do these things. You know that’s probably another ingrained thing. It’s funny with driving as well, I’m really not used of taking up space, or being in a position of power. So that’s something I'm really struggling with through driving. Like, knowing that I can actually push in and take up space, like I have to keep saying to myself ‘take up space! You can do it, damn it!’

A: Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way before but thats so true. You have to be assertive when you're driving, especially city driving. You have to be like ‘nope! I need to get in this lane and you're going to make space for me.’

G: Yeah exactly, and that’s a really hard thing. Usually I’m a stay in the sidelines kind of person, in a lot of situations. Like, you know the whole appearing smaller thing. Like in public I want to be pretty invisible. So that is interesting that I want to be invisible but I love dressing up too. That’s one of the reasons I really love fashion too, is escapism. Like how you can sort of put it on as like an armour and that can be you for the day. That’s a way of taking up space. I think if you're usually quite withdrawn, or you feel like you don't have a place, I think dressing up is really helpful. I think that really helped me growing up. Discovering fashion and different ways of wearing things and like crazy haircuts and stuff, and like hair colours. It made me feel… it felt so good. I used to wear crazy stuff, like googely eyes stuck on my jackets and big platform boots everywhere and a lot of DIY stuff I made and things like that. It was really fun. I kinda want to do that again, and I don't know why I’ve kind of shrunk back a bit again.

...and she always knows her place, Interview Series

…and she always knows her place is a project promoting female and female identifying driven narratives, exploring what it is to be a woman in contemporary life.

I spoke to Rachelle last year about the importance of women supporting women, and what it's like raising two girls in the current socio-political climate. What stands out is how much the public conversation about women's experiences has changed in twelve short months. These topics once niche, have a place in mainstream discourse.

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A: What kind of things are important to you at the moment?

R: At the moment? My family, and trying to finish my degree. I’m working, so my job’s pretty important. Paying bills is pretty important, keeping a roof over my family’s head, so I suppose it all comes down to the girls really.

A: What are you studying?

R: Community Health

A: So is that going into social services?

R: Yeah, I already work in the field. So I think, I would like a piece of paper to validate myself. I kind of set myself a personal challenge to finish it. It’s something that I've always wanted to do. I've started it and you know, it’s not a good time at the moment because I feel like I've committed myself in lots of areas, but I'm still going to finish it.

A: So just broadly. Are you pay much attention to what’s going on in women’s rights in the world at the moment?

R: As much as possible. I believe that woman are still not on an equal playing field to men. I don't think we ever will be. I don't agree with it. But I just think sadly, it’s just never going to happen. Because at the end of the day men are never going to be able to carry a child. We have to. When we choose to have children we have to leave work for a certain amount of time to do that. And there’s always that thing; ‘oh she is ever going to have children? Is she weak because she’s a woman? Is she going cry? Is she over sensitive?’ I feel like that is still going on in the workplace. I've heard it, I've heard it from other women. I’ve heard other women go, ‘ohhh what if she goes away and gets pregnant?’ So I think, part of the biggest barrier to women is actually other women. We should to be lifting each other up, but we tend to not lift each other up. we tend to niggle at other.

“ I’m really happy to say that at the moment, as much as their attitudes give me the shits sometimes, and they talk back to me. I have to celebrate it a little bit, because I want them to be leaders. I want them to be able to fight and say no, and I want them to feel equal.”

I don't know why it happens, but it does. Everyone is like, ‘ohh look at that skinny bitch’ and you know women are still seen as sluts. Men are never referred to as sluts. I think someone’s sexual prowess has got nothing to do with character, but no one would ever call a man a slut.

So whilst I think things are better for women than they have been. I think there’s a long way to go, and hope that I see it become equal. But call me a pessimist, I just don't think that it will. 

A: I haven't asked anyone this before because I haven't spoken to a mother of girls. Do you worry about that for your children?

R: I do, but I’m really happy to say that at the moment, as much as their attitudes give me the shits sometimes, and they talk back to me. I have to celebrate it a little bit, because I want them to be leaders. I want them to be able to fight and say no, and I want them to feel equal. Yeah I do. and I want them to know how they should be treated. 

When I was younger, when a boy hit a girl it was because ‘he liked her.’ How stupid? I don't want anyone to say that to my girls and I hate the term ‘boys will be boys.’ It really irritates me, because what does that mean? Badly behaved children will be badly behaved children, it doesn't matter what gender they are. I just want the girls to be strong and independent and to be leaders, and to come to decisions on their own that are good choices. So yeah, it does worry me. I don't know the secret formula to giving that to your kids that. I’ve seen plenty of young people who are going through things who’s parents are great, who gave them everything. But they still have their free will and they still make a choice. So, I don’t know? I suppose you have to surround yourself with good people and hope for the best. 

A: Yeah. So there hasn’t been anything that stood out to you politically or socially? 

R: In terms of….  the US? I try to block that out of my mind. because that man is a pig. Women have been protesting for years and it gets us things slowly. If we didn't have the Suffragettes protesting we wouldn't be voting. Look, it is difficult to be a woman in a mans’ world, quote unquote. I ran for Council when I was 21 years old and got elected. I was a 21 year old female on a Council full of middle aged men and it was difficult. 

“ I’m not accusing anybody of sexism. It’s just that’s immediately where I go to. Rightly or wrongly, the fact that I go there shows that perhaps maybe I don’t? Maybe I don’t feel valued as a woman?”

A: Did they just not really value your input?

R: Yeah, just intimidating, quite condescending at times, and bullying. It’s hard. I was just a young girl and the men were all… I think the youngest man would have been 37. Then up from there, it was 45 plus. So I've been there. Women will protest, and I think that that’s a good thing. At the moment I’ve signed a petition to advocate for portable long service leave in the Community Services Sector. Although everyone in the Community Service Sector is disadvantaged in the same way, in that we go by government contracts and things like that. If you don't get your eight years once your place closes down, well your seven years, you get nothing. So we’re at the mercy of that tender. I’ve been with my organisation for eight years, but a year of that, a bit more I had to have off for maternity leave. And a lot of other women are in the same boat. We are affected quite a lot by things that you wouldn't even think about. So while what happened in America, and women’s rights are not great globally, we have to fix our inner circle before we can fix the other stuff. I would’ve have loved nothing more than to see a female president, but you know sadly people looked at her and she was a ‘bitch’ and she was this and she was that. Never mind that this other misogynistic person was making these comments about grabbing women, I'm not even going to say it. All we looked at was, ‘oh that women’s got balls, doesn't she?’ You can’t fix that stuff unless we fix what we’ve got at home. So we have to start small. We have to change mindsets. Like I said, we have to lift each other up. We can’t be passing women over for middle management jobs because they have to get to work at 9.45am because they’ve had to do school drop off. You know? We could do job sharing, but we don't do that, why? Because we can get a man to do the one job. We have to fix the smaller stuff first. If everybody did one small thing then that would snowball into something quite big.

A: Do you feel valued as a woman in our society?

R: I feel valued in my inner circle. Sometimes there have been comments that have made me feel devalued.I love my workplace, I really do. But I watched two males get promoted who have no technical knowledge of anything at all. There wasn't even an interview. I found that quite interesting. I don't know why, I don't know how that happened. But it did. I'm not accusing anybody of sexism. It’s just that’s immediately where I go to. Rightly or wrongly, the fact that I go there shows that perhaps maybe I don’t? Maybe I don’t feel valued as a woman? I'm sure my workplace isn't prejudiced, but my mind still goes there.

A: I was part of a discussion recently about the workplace. You kind of have to decide if you're going to be the person that stands up for women or not. And if you are the later you’ll probably have a more successful career because you’ll not be ruffling feathers. Otherwise you almost become a martyr for the cause.

R: It’s because Feminism has got such a dirty connotation to it, because men have put it there. ‘Feminists have hairy legs and hairy arms and burn there bra. They protest and march, and oh my god speak their mind! how awful.’ I don't know why the word is so dirty, it shouldn’t be. I mean it’s really interesting how as a woman we are undervalued. Like, our right to chose. It’s either pro-life or pro-choice right? Well shouldn’t be pro-choice or anti-choice? But it’s not, and I wonder who put that there? Because that’s just designed to make a person feel like crap about a decision that belongs to them. In a decision they chose for their own body, or they’re not allowed to. That’s what’s going to happen in America now. Woman are going to loose their right to choose no matter what the circumstance. Not that I think it matters what circumstance is. I think a woman’s right to choose is a woman’s right to choose. And that’s another thing I am trying to teach the girls; the whole ‘my body, my rules’ kind of thing. Because it’s important. But it’s really hard to do that when you’ve got these people in power saying ‘no this is right, this is the way it has to be.’ And it’s not based on anything medical. It’s all based on religious biblical stuff. 

A: Do you mind if I ask, when did you have to consciously be aware of how these kind of issues would affect the girls?

R: I think we’ve been aware from the word go. One of my kids likes wearing pink and the other one likes wearing blue, and that’s a choice that they’ve made on their own. They like to play with toy cars, they like to play with lego, they like Star Wars but they also like ballet. You know? They like traditional girls' things and they like traditional boys' things. I tried not to have anything based on gender. Yeah, I don't think we’ve tried to push on that boy and girl gender sort of stuff. They’re very different. One of my girls favourite Disney cartoon is Pocahontas, I couldn’t have been prouder. The other one likes Aurora. So you know, less proud (lol). But she’s happy, she likes the story. They make their own choices and you just kind of, guide them to be respectful of other people. If they want to dress in pink frilly clothes or they want to dress in mens’ clothes, I don't care. One of them, when she was three said she wish she wasn't born with curly hair, so I said ‘let’s straighten it.’ Because I was afraid one day she’d come to me and go, ‘I wish I wasn't born a girl’ and she’d be too scared to say it because I said she couldn't straighten her hair? Which is a long way to go from, ‘oh god, I don't like curly hair.’ What if then later on down the track she’s got something much more significant in regards to her gender choice or sexuality or whatever it is, and she’s too scared to come to me because I wouldn't straighten her hair? So I guess I've been aware of it for a long time and I'm trying to empower her to feel comfortable and to speak to me about whatever it is so I can give her as much guidance as possible. So that’s why she gets her hair straightened at the age of three. How could I say ‘my body my rules,’ when she sees me straighten my hair and I say, ‘no you can’t straighten yours.’

...and she always knows her place Interview Series

…and she always knows her place is a project promoting female and female identifying driven narratives, exploring what it is to be a woman in contemporary life.

Chloe Turner is a Melbourne based Musician and Music Industry professional. Chloe is also a part of Listen, a feminist record label and collective who advocate for equality in the music industry. When we caught up we chatted about women in the music industry, and how everyday biases formed from traditional gender roles effect women in the workplace.

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A: What kind of things are important to you in your life right now?

C: That’s a tricky question. Well my partner is important to me, and my friends, and my work in the music industry. I'm very career driven at the moment.

A: Why is your work important to you? Is it a passion of yours?

C: Yeah, I work really hard to do things in music. I love music and helping musicians with the skills that I have in admin and writing and being organised. I'm a musician myself but also I do lots of admin, run the label and stuff. 

A: When did you discover that not only you love playing music, but also you have skills to help other musicians?

C: I was learning musical instruments when I was in high school and primary school, and went to uni and did a Music Industry Degree. That was when I was 18-19-20, and probably in the last year of uni I decided that admin was probably better for me than actually playing. So I started focusing more on that.  Now I'm a musician and do all the admin and help run the label with people.

The label that I run is a feminist record label, and I am a member of a feminist collective called Listen. I do a lot of gender equality stuff, it’s a very white male dominated industry. 

Like, festival bills and lots of local line-ups, the bands that are breaking overseas, they're all male dominated. And the constant divide between Pop and Rock music, and then 'Multicultural' music. It seems that if you are an artist of colour your music is defined by genre and not the actual music that you play. For example, Folk-Rock artists of colour may still be defined as World because they may be Indigenous, not just Folk. So at Listen we try and have discussions about this kind of stuff. But Listen is a tiny baby organisation.

A: So what’s the most frustrating part of being a woman in the music industry and trying to break through?

C: People tend to assume that you're an Assistant, or a Social Media person, and not listen to you or bother to introduce themselves. You may have a lot of responsibility within your job, as a band manager or a project manager, or whatever you’re doing, and people always assume you’re just there to help the men who have the important ‘decision making’ roles. I’d say that’s the most frustrating. It’s like you always have to prove you can do your job.

A: That’s so typical actually of so many ‘female’ jobs.

C: Women always fall into the marketing and publicity side of things too. And it’s always under paid. Or if it is paid correctly, its always questioned. Like, ‘do I really need to pay someone that much to do publicity?’ You do the work and nobody will hear about it, see how much publicity is worth to you then.

In office environments in the past, I’ve always fallen into, or it’s been assumed that I will do the office cleaning, cleaning the dishes, ordering supplies etc. when it’s never been specifically my job to do these things.

A: That’s crazy, but so true. I read that women in offices do so many extra unpaid admin jobs, like cleaning dishes, bringing food in for meetings. All that kind of shit is just expected.

C: Yeah, or it’s like I’ll cook my lunch and while I'm cleaning up my dishes I’ll quickly wipe down all the benches with some spray and wipe, or clean out the fridge just because I'm in the kitchen. Whereas I don't think anyone else would do that. They'd just be like ‘oh there’s coffee stains on the bench,’ or they wouldn't even notice it. They’d be like ‘ok, done.’

A: It comes back to everyday biases that people have.

C: Yeah all that extra unpaid domestic labour. I was reading this really interesting article about unpaid emotional labour that goes with domestic labour for women in the household, and women in the workplace. Men are like, ‘yeah I’ll help, just ask me and I’ll help.’ But the act of asking is still emotional labour. Like, I can ask someone to do the dishes, because I did them last time. But that’s still taking effort for me to take notice that they need doing and go ask someone, and then they probably won’t get done. I might end up having to do them anyway. 

A: It’s like you become almost like…

C: The Mum

A: The Mum! Yeah. You have to ask people to do their chores around the office.

C: Which is so much extra work and potential confrontation.

A: Yeah, you don't want to create more tension at work and become that…

C: Naggy. Even though ‘nagging’ is just the patriarchy.

A: Yeah, so true. 

So for female musicians, is it the same kind of thing? Unconscious bias where like you almost have to bring it to people’s attention?  Like, ‘You have no women on your line-up.’

C: Well, I feel in that sense it is. When we’ve called out festivals, or called out people like, ‘have you looked at your line-up? There’s no women at all. How did you not notice that?’ But then it’s also women, just like being assumed that they aren't in the band or the musician. That they're the girlfriend. 

That happens surprisingly a lot. That happened to me at a venue last year. We were playing a gig there and we were really early so we were loading in our gear, and we were just sitting there waiting for the sound person to arrive. Then the sound person just came up to my partner and introduced themselves and walked away, and it was like, ‘I’m in the band too and I’m sitting right here. Right next to my bandmate who you just shook hands with.’

A: I feel like those things are so obvious to women, but maybe not to men?

C: My partner’s pretty good. They’re non-binary trans, so they are going through a whole bunch of stuff themselves. But they are like, ‘okay that was fucked, that guy didn't even acknowledge your existence.’

A: Yeah. I don’t know if you watch Master of None?

C: Yes!

A: That episode they did in the first season,

C: With the Ad and the walking home thing?

A: Yeah. And they go out to a party and the director shakes all the guys hands and the walks away.

C: They have the fight.

A: Yeah, the fact that he’s like ‘I'm sure he didn't mean it,’ but the women are like ‘no.’

C: ‘This happens to us everyday and you’re already defending the dude in this situation, without even listening to us.’ I love that episode. And even at the start when they’re like walking home and it’s like ‘do do do do do,’ and for the girl its like ‘da-dadum!’ Can’t walk through the park, might not make it out of the park.

A: They (Master of None) have a great way of talking about different experiences. Whether it be race or gender or whatever, in way that’s so everyday, and so approachable. They don't have to sensationalise it for people to get it. 

C: They just work it in, its so good.

A: So do you think women are valued in our society?

C: Um, yes. But they are under appreciated. I think that’s a good summery. I haven't really encountered like, absolute misogynists. I know they're out there. But I'm definitely in a bubble, a north side arts bubble.

But yeah, I definitely think we’re valued. I think it’s just lots of under appreciation and having no idea about the work and extra things that women do.