…and she always knows her place is a project promoting female and female identifying driven narratives, exploring what it is to be a woman in contemporary life.
I interviewed Melbourne fashion designer and stylist Grace Butterworth last year. I think Grace would describe herself as an introvert, as do I. I identified with her story about trying to find value in yourself, using fashion as an armour and taking up some mother fucking space.
A: What kind of things are important to you in your live right now?
G: Well, I don't know. I think just sort of working out what I should be doing is a big thing. because I’m kinda unemployed mainly at the moment. Just sort of working on my own little projects and doing the styling stuff. I was in London for a year, and came back like a year ago and I feel like I've been not sure what to do with a fashion degree here.
A: Is there way more opportunity in London?
G: There is, but then there isn’t. Like, they take full advantage of interns over there. It’s cut throat. London is a great place, like there’s so much to do, there are so many opportunities as well but everyone is a work-a-holic over there. Like six days a week everyone is working all the time. I was really lucky, because I won this award that sent me over there with my grad collection. They found me an internship and then paid me a wage for the internship. Otherwise I could never afford to do it, because it you have to intern for a long time at the company and maybe you’ll get a job? But I wouldn't know how to go straight there and get a job.
A: It’s tough. I lived there myself for a couple of year. I loved living there, but, I’m actually glad my time was limited because I don't think I could sustain a life there. I mean it’s hard enough here in a creative industry… I think career is a big thing for me at the moment too. Like, how do you make this happen?
G: Yeah exactly. God yeah, there’s so many interns in the place that I worked at that had been there for two years and were not going to get a job out of it. Like, we weren't even allowed to use the kettle to make tea and stuff. All through London winter, no microwave for food.
A: What? That’s brutal.
G: They had like ten interns at some point, and they’re like, ‘it’s too hectic if you all use the kettle.’ I didn't see it at the time, because I was so determined to do a really good job, but it’s like, ‘you guys are fucked!’ They get us to walk everywhere, carrying I don't know how many kilo’s worth of gowns. They wouldn't folk out for Uber’s or taxi’s. So you’d have to walk places or take public transport. I’d be on the Tube at peak hour, with like ￡10,000, like hugely expensive gowns, carrying them to a stylist or something in the city, on the fucking Tube. And told not to drop or to damage it, not bend it at all, you have to keep it in pristine condition. Like, what the fuck guys?!
A: Yeah, you’d think they’d fork out a couple of pounds for a cab. For me, I thought that stemmed back to the class system in England, and once you notice it, it’s really prominent.
G: I never really thought of it that way. But I think that maybe it is like a prevailing notion there. It’s like us and them. Yeah, it was really separative like that.
A: I'm interested in how women view there place in society, and if they still feel pressure to conform to gender roles and expectations. Is that something you think about at all?
G: Yeah, I struggle hugely with speaking up, or being a leader or having ideas heard, and I fall into a role as well, and I don't like that. Like, my girlfriend she is the manager of this other woman that she’s working with, but she didn't realise that she was her manager. My girlfriend kept going like ‘I don't know what I’m doing? I'm trying to like manager her, and tell her the different things to do but she’s not treating me as her manager.’ She didn't realise at all. She thought that they were equal ranking. But my girlfriend was actually meant to give her direction. But she didn’t realise the set up, so that was really awkward. People just assumed that she wouldn't be the manager. Even other women.
A: Yeah. That’s so interesting. I think because of the way that we’ve been brought up to think about ourselves, I guess it’s prejudice. You don't mean to be that way. It’s just your reality is women don't fall into this role or this category. Anyway I’m just blabbering now a bit.
G: No, I agree. The guys I work with have all been really great, but… it’s more something that I need to work on myself. Just feeling sort of like there’s always a little bit of tension.
A: How do you mean?
G: Just like, oh dudes acting a little bit flirty. Which can be uncomfortable, because I’m obviously gay. I work that into conversations sometimes.
A: I’ll just casually drop this…
G: Casually, ‘hey…like soz.’ (lol). Oh yeah, like this producer, the last show we did we went out for drinks afterwards. Then at the end of the night, I kissed him goodbye on the cheek, and then he tried to kiss me on the cheek but turned his head and kissed me on the lips at the last second. Like, this is a guy I’d been working with for two days. I’m pretty sure he did it on purpose. I know that could be a mistake. I think because he pulled me in for a second, and then turned his head at the last second. Stuff like this that makes you feel, ugh, like we can’t just be friends. Like, I want to be friends with these people, and I want more men in my life who are great, inspiring, everything. But then this stuff happens, and you just feel like (sigh) exhausted. At times it’s like ‘Who is the one I can trust?’
A: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
G: I think it’s why I prefer working with women sometimes. I want to get over it. That’s another thing I wanna try fight through. I have a goal to work on with myself, to have clear boundaries and be more comfortable around men.
A: I wonder if it’s also…. well older men can come across a bit disrespectful of younger women in the workplace. I just don’t even really want to deal with that.
G: Yeah, exactly. It can be a bit of a boys club too, at times.
A: Even in fashion?
G: Yeah. Definitely. Photo shoots a lot. Fashion not so much. The guys I’ve met on the fashion side have been really lovely. But I think sometimes a lot of male designers get, and I don’t know maybe it’s not completely right? But sometimes they get heard a little bit more, they’re more respected. It’s just like a feeling that male designers are appreciated more. In a way, for doing something that’s usually a woman’s… you know it comes back to women’s art is craft, quilting and tapestry and stuff is a craft. But when a guy does it, it can be Art!
A: Yes. suddenly he’s taken this old medium and changed it in a new way!
G: Yeah, wow! How inspiring.‘Taking a craft and making it Art!’ It’s like, ‘it has always been Art.’
A: Well anything that’s traditionally a woman’s job in the home, like cooking, fashion; sewing, art, craft, all those things in the professional realm are male dominated.
G: Yeah! It’s like what the fuck?! Like, so many famous chefs are male. That’s great and everything but you know it’s not an equal representation. I’m sure there are many female amazing chefs out there. I think it’s such an ingrained thing. It can be frustrating.
A: It just feels like so… all really nuanced. It is part of our societal norm, you don't even know how you’re supposed to tackle it in a way.
G: Yeah, it’s huge.
A: Do you feel valued as a woman in society?
G: Hmm it’s tricky. I don't really feel like I'm doing much of value in society I guess in general, because I’m mostly unemployed and just kicking around. I don't know, I think possibility? It’s like I constantly need my friends to tell me if I’m good at something or I am capable of something. I feel totally incapable some of the time. Even though I can do these things. You know that’s probably another ingrained thing. It’s funny with driving as well, I’m really not used of taking up space, or being in a position of power. So that’s something I'm really struggling with through driving. Like, knowing that I can actually push in and take up space, like I have to keep saying to myself ‘take up space! You can do it, damn it!’
A: Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way before but thats so true. You have to be assertive when you're driving, especially city driving. You have to be like ‘nope! I need to get in this lane and you're going to make space for me.’
G: Yeah exactly, and that’s a really hard thing. Usually I’m a stay in the sidelines kind of person, in a lot of situations. Like, you know the whole appearing smaller thing. Like in public I want to be pretty invisible. So that is interesting that I want to be invisible but I love dressing up too. That’s one of the reasons I really love fashion too, is escapism. Like how you can sort of put it on as like an armour and that can be you for the day. That’s a way of taking up space. I think if you're usually quite withdrawn, or you feel like you don't have a place, I think dressing up is really helpful. I think that really helped me growing up. Discovering fashion and different ways of wearing things and like crazy haircuts and stuff, and like hair colours. It made me feel… it felt so good. I used to wear crazy stuff, like googely eyes stuck on my jackets and big platform boots everywhere and a lot of DIY stuff I made and things like that. It was really fun. I kinda want to do that again, and I don't know why I’ve kind of shrunk back a bit again.
